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Talk:Edward Jellico
are there any instances of jellico being referred to as a "rear admiral" as opposed to simply "admiral", his usual title? -- Captain MKB 15:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC) On a similar note, it does seem odd that a "lowly" rear-admiral would be appointed C-in-C (as per the Destiny series) - especially since we know that Nechayev was, at least, an Admiral (4-star) if not 5... do we have any further evidence... – CommodoreFisher 21:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC) :Mere Mortals, in the bits that I read, did not make reference to his specific rank other than "Admiral." I do not know what the source of his being a Rear Admiral was, but left it alone since I had no info on it. -- Sci 10:36 11 NOV 2008 UTC :He wore the Rear Admiral insignia in the New Frontier comic miniseries. -- Captain MKB 00:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC) ::...and I see there is about a year's dfference there. Perhaps there is a policy of promoting into the position no matter what the admiral's rank. Certainly we know the system isn't a one-to-one requirement, after-all, Janeway got promoted three grades in one year -- perhaps Jellico got four grades in one year to beome a Fleet Admiral? -- Captain MKB 01:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC) :::I asked David Mack, author of the Destiny novels, about this, noting that Jellico would be resumed a fleet admiral were it not for the problem stemming from the New Frontier comic. He said that the trilogy and Peter David's comics "are not compatible, continuity-wise." It's probably safe to presume that whatever was going on at the time of the comic, Jellico was made a fleet admiral no later than his promotion to C-in-C in 2381. I've updated the page accordingly. ::Whatever Mack said aside, its not completely incompatible -- after all, Jellico could have been rapidly promoted in the crisis. -- Captain MKB 02:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC) I hope you'll excuse my ignorance of ranky things, but is it not possible that through whatever circumstances he might be the C-and-C while not holding the usual expected rank? And with that thought in mind should we be declaring him a rank no source has apparently given him? --8of5 21:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC) :My logic is unclear when it comes to statements by authors -- is there a David Mack transcript that states what the user above has said that Mack said? :I think its probably possible for a vice admiral or four-star admiral to ascend to C-in-C if appointed -- with or without automatic promotion? -- and we even have had vice admirals who are referred to as "fleet admiral" as a title without an increase in rank (Nechayev in her last couple of episodic appearances) -- Captain MKB 00:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC) ::Mr. Mack commented in the thread Jellico Question for David Mack - Destiny Spoilers at the TrekBBS Trek Literature forum.--Cicero 00:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC) :I hate to disagree with Mr. Mack ,but I find no huge continuity problem -- Jellico could probably have gotten a quick promotion considering the attrition of admirals over the two years between the NF comic and the C-in-C nomination -- Captain MKB 00:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC) ::A poster in the thread linked above pointed out another possibility, which also seems credible: The Jellico seen in the comic is a mirror-universe impostor who makes many subtle mistakes (such as calling a ship "he" instead of "she"); the rank insignia might have been one of those. Costuming errors occasionally occur on the show (e.g. Captain Sisko wore commander's rank in one episode); if those mistakes are taken as canonical, and not dismissed as real world errors, then junior officers might not always be inclined to comment when they see a superior wearing the wrong rank insignia (I know of at least one incident in the US Army in which this actually happened; only the senior officer's superior brought the insignia issue to their attention, though it was widely noticed), so the officers aboard the experimental ship may simply have not said anything about Jellico's odd insignia. --Columbia clipper 16:05, July 31, 2010 (UTC) Rank Jellico's rank is given as Grand Admiral here because he served as Commander-in-Chief of the Federation Starfleet. His rank wasn't specifically established as C-in-C (like in his other flag officer appearances, he's described only as "Admiral", not in a way that specified which grade). The C-in-C position was previously established as being held by an officer ranking above Fleet Admiral (in The Undiscovered Country), and Grand Admiral was established as such a rank. Thus, his rank is given as Grand Admiral, which grade it is presumed all C-in-Cs hold. --Columbia clipper 16:05, July 31, 2010 (UTC) :I have to agree with User:Weikia's edit (which, I promise you, I never expected to be saying, since Weikia is an alternate user-name for User:TyphussJediVader to get around his block at MG). There is absolutely no evidence for Jellico or any other C-in-C is a Grand Admiral; this is based on one officer initially mentioned in a comic written four months before Star Trek III (and before TNG or anything after that); i.e. There is zero evidence that anyone except Stephen Turner held this rank. All evidence points to the C-in-C being a Fleet Admiral who has authority over the entire fleet, including others of equal rank. Most of them have, in fact, been referred to as "Fleet Admiral". It has not been established that he holds a different rank (certainly not in Undiscovered Country nor in any other canon source), and certainly not one that is rather more common in Star Wars than Star Trek.IcarusPhoenix 02:03, August 1, 2010 (UTC) ::No C-in-C has been referred to as Fleet Admiral. None of their ranks (with the presumed exception of Stephen Turner) have been explicitly stated. Officers serving as Commanding Officer, Starfleet Command and Chief of Staff for the Federation Starfleet have frequently been named as fleet admirals, but no C-in-C (other than Turner, who context suggests was C-in-C) has explicitly been addressed by rank. ::However, William Smillie, the only canonical C-in-C, wears a sleeve rank that indicates he is a grade higher than a fleet admiral: File:2270s-2350 gadm sleeve.png | C-in-C sleeve rank File:2270s-2350 fadm sleeve.png | FADM sleeve rank ::As you can see, the insignia includes both gold trim around his rank pin and an additional perpendicular marker on his sleeve band (beginning with rear admiral, each flag rank in this period adds one marker). Smillie's uniform also bears a second set of gold piping (as does C-in-C Androvar Drake's in The Ashes of Eden); other admirals have only one, including fleet admirals. ::I was initially hostile to the concept of grand admirals in the Star Trek universe. As you say, it sounds more like a Star Wars than a Star Trek rank. But the evidence does seem to support the existence of some grade above fleet admiral being held by the C-in-C, and we know that at least one officer - who was indicated as the most senior officer in Starlfeet - was a grand admiral. Thus, the C-in-C's grade is presumed to be grand admiral, and it it further presumed (in the absence of contrary evidence) that the grade was not reduced as Starfleet grew (Drake's wearing of two sets of gold piping aids this presumption), and Jellico's grade is given as grand admiral.--Columbia clipper 02:31, August 1, 2010 (UTC) :::Thank you for the images that prove my point; the trim is different, but the actual rank (i.e. the pin, which is the only canon indicator of rank we've ever seen) is exactly the same. Chekov is referred to as "Fleet Admiral" (admittedly after his term as C-in-C), as is Harriman, and Sinclair-Alexander, Jellico, and Drake are referred to as so during (though in Drake's case, this is admittedly in the Shatnerverse) More importantly, Turner is never referred to as the C-in-C, so you're making the dual assumption that he's the C-in-C and that C-in-C's are Grand Admiral's. Finally, Robert Fletcher, the creator of this rank system, wrote under the rank stripes for C-in-C "Fleet Admiral serving as Commander-in-Chief". I'd say that's pretty good evidence, wouldn't you?IcarusPhoenix 02:41, August 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::To my knowledge, there is no canonical reference to rank insignia during the period in question. Strictly speaking, the insignia worn below the metal pin device is rank insignia, inasmuch as it is insignia that varies by rank. We have no indication whether one system is considered paramount to the other. There is real-world precedent for the use of additional insignia of a different kind to denote higher rank: George Dewey, when promoted to Admiral of the Navy (at the time, the grade ranked directly above Admiral, because Fleet Admiral had yet to be established), indicated his rank by adding a second gold anchor to the insignia of an admiral, which consisted of a gold anchor (worn by all naval officers) and four silver stars. What we see of Smillie's gold piping is remarkably similar. Further, his uniform bears an additional perpendicular mark on his sleeve band, which as I noted above is, strictly speakin, rank insignia, and which, for all other admirals, indicates an increase in grade. ::::What we do know is that the uniform and insignia of the C-in-C are different, and are different in a way that suggests a higher grade. Unfortunately, Fletcher's notes are not canonical, nor do they constitute a licensed source. (If they did, our discussion would be over.) ::::What sources include references to Chekov, Harriman, Sinclair-Alexander, Jellico, or Drake as fleet admirals while serving or after serving as C-in-C? I'm fairly certain my efforts to find such a reference (specifically to discredit the rank of grand admiral) were exhaustive; I've found none, though I'd previously been certain they existed. ::::Turner was never referred to as C-in-C, but, unless I'm mistaken, he was identified as being the senior officer of Starfleet, which has elsewhere been established as the C-in-C. --Columbia clipper 03:02, August 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::Fletcher's notes are as canon as you can get short of someone on screen actually saying it out loud; he designed the system. Period. It is just as canon as anything written by Sternbach or the Okudas. As for your assertion that the stripe is somehow part of the rank insignia, this is pretty much contradicted by the fact that the differentiation in stripes didn't come until ST III; in TWOK, Kirk wore a completely different braid on his sleeve that Fletcher maintained was universal for all admirals (consequently, it was actually the neck trim from an original BSG uniform). The increase in grade you refer to also comes with a subsequent change in pin, which this does not. That and, um... Well, not to belabor a point, but the addition of the trim is very specifically referred to as "Fleet Admiral Serving as Commander-in-Chief". :::::As for references, Chekov is called a Fleet Admiral in the Vulcan's Soul novels (though, as previously stated, this is after he has relinquished the duties of C-in-C), Drake in Ashes of Eden, Harriman by his own son in Serpents Among the Ruins, Sinclair-Alexander in the same, and Jellico... well, that one I think I need to look back up, because it's entirely possible that I'm misremembering that from the Destiny series. In regards to Turner being deemed the senior officer of Starfleet, I don't recall that, but I don't have a copy of that particular comic accessible at present (I think I have it on a currently-inaccessible hard-drive, but don't quote me on that). Either way, unless he was specifically referred to as the Commander-in-Chief, it is entirely an assumption that he holds that duty, and on that assumption you have built the even shakier assumption that all other C-in-C's must therefore be "Grand Admirals". :::::As for George Dewey, that is merely one example; by the same token, the official regulations of the US Civil War (prior to 1864, when U.S. Grant was made a Lieutenant General by an act of Congress) included only two grades of general officer - Brigadier General and Major General. However, the regulations also stipulated insignia for a "Major General serving as General-in-Chief" of three stars. However, this person was still a Major General, not a Lieutenant General. This as no different. IcarusPhoenix 03:27, August 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::Edit: I should also note that DC comics being the only source for the term pretty much annihilates its credibility, since we're talking about people who used three arrowheads around a shield to indicate a Vice Admiral, three arrowheads around a triangle to indicate a Rear Admiral, and had a pin for something they called an "Ensign 1st Class" that is almost indistinguishable from a normal Ensign. ::::::Robert Fletcher (excellently and elegantly) designed the rank system, but his design notes are only regarded s background material by Memory Beta. What separates them from the familiar work of Sternbach, Okuda, Mandel, etc. is one of two things: First, the materials published by the latter were distributed under license from Paramount or CBS (usually by Pocketbooks), which brings them into the realm of sources considered by Memory Beta (but still secondary to canonical sources). Second, information those persons provide sometimes shows detail not seen, but present, on screen. Fletcher's notes were not shown on screen, and they were not (so far as I know) published under license, so they aren't regarded as sources (just as The Doctor from Voyager is not named Zimmerman so far as we're concerned, despite production notes from early in the series to the contrary). ::::::The phrase "Fleet Admiral" occurs in only one of the sources you name for the several C-in-C's ranks. In Serpents Among the Ruins, Aventeer Vokar is referred to by that rank several times. No Federation admiral's grade is specified (indeed, no Starfleet admiral is referred to by a specific grade in any of those sources). If Turner is the senior officer of Starfleet, he is by inference C-in-C, because the C-in-C is the senior officer of Starfleet according to other sources. ::::::The example you propose regarding the US Army is problematic. The regulation in question was only in effect during the tenure of a single General-in-Chief, who added it self-servingly (he wanted to be the apparent heir of General Washington) while subject to insufficient oversight. I think it's safe to assume that the 2290s Starfleet is managed to professional standards adequate to prevent such an action; further, we do see the double-piping on two different C-in-Cs, whereas Major General Winfield Scott, the officer in question's successor, declined to wear a three-star insignia as General-in-Chief until he was promoted to Lieutenant General. Also, at the time that a major general acting as general-in-chief wore three stars, no officers held the regular grade of major general; thus, three stars was simultaneously the de facto insignia of a major general, and thus the parallel disappears. ::::::Unfortunately, we are bound by the ridiculous decisions of DC comics, until and unless they're explicitly contradicted by another source. (I really wish we could exclude some sources, or some pieces of information - particularly sources that consist almost solely of lists, those video games that add ship classes or new technologies or organizations for the sake of gameplay, or that were intended to poke fun at Star Trek or otherwise note be taken seriously, but we can't.) So we have Ensigns 1st Class, Grand Admirals, and pseudo-chipmunks in Super Mario outfits as members of the Enterprise-A's crew. It is what it is. --Columbia clipper 05:23, August 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Not to go off on a tangent, but you need to seriously work on your history; at the time in question, (i.e. the Regular Army before the Civil War), there was a full-grade Major General, General Winfield Scott, who held a brevet of Lieutenant General (which had no insignia under regulations). I'm not sure which General-in-Chief you're referring to, but by context it I rather hope it's either McClellan or Halleck, neither of whom used it. It was, in fact, added in the mid-1850's during the tenure of General Scott, and it wasn't added by general Scott, but by the only person with the authority to do so - the then-Secretary of War, Jefferson Davis. It should be noted that General Scott did wear this insignia, as he was entitled to do. After General Grant when was made a full-grade Lieutenant General, Secretary of War Stanton changed the regulations to add this rank, eliminating the position of "Major General serving as General-in-Chief". :::::::With regard to the Memory-Beta position on Fletcher's work, I believe that to be a mistake, and I think it's something I will take up with the mods and the community-at-large, since it seems kind of ridiculous to ignore the very work that the writers and producers were using as their source; indeed, strictly speaking, it's more "canon" than the novels, and certainly more than the comic books. That being said, my interpretation of the phrase "source materiel" is different than yours; you seem to be considering it a lesser level of authenticity, whereas I am thinking of it in the strictly academic sense, where nothing beats "source materiel". It is a first-hand source, and should be treated as such in my opinion. As for the decisions of DC Comics, for the purposes of this discussion, they only apply to Turner, and no one else. Not one of those people was ever referred to as a "Grand Admiral", and thus magically assigning them that rank is a complete assumption based upon demonstrably faulty work. When I get my system up and running again and can access my files, I should run a search on all the books for "Fleet Admiral", because this discussion has made me rather curious as to how often it really is used. Right now I'm operating off an eidetic memory. :::::::Of course, the above argument is unnecessary, because you've already explained why the DC comics ranks can be ignored; they have been explicitly contradicted by other sources; Namely, every edition of the Encyclopedia ever produced. While some of the Encyclopedia information is contradicted on screen (particularly in regards to ranks of this period, where the producers were actually quite assiduously adhering to Mr. Fletcher's guidelines with the notable exceptions of Star Trek's V and IV), there is no onscreen evidence of a Grand Admiral, and these materials certainly outrank any and all comics that they may contradict under Memory-Beta guidelines. There is zero reason to arbitrarily assign the title to any officer other than Turner, any more than there is to take the word of SFB or FASA over on-screen evidence, novelizations, and books, and the articles should be changed back immediately. Frankly, such a baseless assumption is closer to the "make-it-up-as-you-go-along-whether-it-fits-the-story-or-not fanon" methods of Memory-Gamma, and has no business here. :::::::IcarusPhoenix 05:53, August 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Edit: On a further note, we both should have read the talk page for this article prior to this; specifically, the part above, where David Mack, author of Mere Mortals, implies that while C-in-C, Jellico was... a Fleet Admiral. Since we know Jellico was C-in-C and there is no specific statement that Turner was, I'd say that's enough evidence to dispense with "Grand Admiral" as an automatic grade for the C-in-C, and the consensus on this specific article seems to be that Jellico was a Fleet Admiral as C-in-C. In other words, Turner is still the only known Grand Admiral. :::Continue this discussion at Forum:Presuming titles, ranks and insignia in licensed character articles -- Captain MKB 13:30, August 1, 2010 (UTC)